Forum:Chat
Alright, here I am with another forum post. This is going to be a quick one, don't worry. My plan is to implement the Chat functions on this wiki for testing (more info here). It's a new feature introduced by Wikia which I feel has the potential to replace our Mibbit chatroom, and would allow more connectivity to the wiki itself. Of course, to do this, I need your approval. You can try the current chat out here. Keep in mind that it's a preliminary version, and therefore does not have as many features as the final will possess. You can request more features on the main chat page. So--who votes for this? [[User:TheSlicer|'KHA']][[User talk:TheSlicer|'AAA']][[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'AN!']] EDIT: Deadline is July 31st! -Crazy-Lihkan38, the Old Timer and B'crat of CBW 02:44, July 23, 2011 (UTC) Voting For #Collector1 #I'm not allowed on Mibbit, but this would be fine. I give it my vote. #Tested it out on main Wikia wiki.[[User:Flex217|'Master']] [[User talk:Flex217|'of']] [[User blog:Flex217|'Paradox']] , , (UTC) #Not being allowed on Mibbit, I'm good with this. ODST! 23:10, July 2, 2011 (UTC) #I'm for it. [[User:BionicleKid|''Bionicle]][[User talk:BionicleKid|Kid]] 23:18, July 2, 2011 (UTC) #Chat is a lovely way for editors to communicate with eachother. I certainly hope that I'm allowed to vote here... [[User:Ajraddatz|'a']][[User Talk:Ajraddatz|'jr']] 01:57, July 3, 2011 (UTC) # #Definitely a better way to converse with the other users. --Sincerely, Cprl. Echo 1 High Resolution, 21:15, July 3, 2011 (UTC) #There's only a few people that use mibbit, and I wanna get to know the other users. I think this would be great! -'maroon >Dark black >Phyrrus maroon >Has black >Arrived' 22:33, July 3, 2011 (UTC) # ToaKayos 15:31, July 21, 2011 (UTC) #it makes talking to other people easier [[User:Speewaa48|'Spaunauh']][[User talk:Speewaa48|'Says']][[Speewaa's Story|'Hi']] 17:35, July 21, 2011 (UTC) #I just don't like going on mibbit, but I don't really care.--'Screams' 'of' ' ' 18:39, July 22, 2011 (UTC) #How bout we get both Mibbit and the new Chat Fuction! i say its a good idea! Pboy2-Love And Care Never Dare- 20:52, July 23, 2011 (UTC) Against #I go to Mibbit. And I'm already used to it, and I would prefer not to have to learn a whole new system again. :/ ~[[User:Jman98|'Jman']][[User talk:Jman98|'98']] [[Shadowplayer|'is']] [[User:Jman98/BIONICLE FTW!!|'AMAZING!]]~ 05:36, May 3, 2011 (UTC) #Sorry. But this is a wiki. Not a chat. That's why we have mibbit. '''Varkanax39 13:44, May 3, 2011 (UTC) #We're part of Wiki Metru. Therefore, we should use their chat, just like the other WM sites do. [[User talk:Toa Roden|'Toa']] [[User:Toa Roden|'Roden']] #As per above [[User:Monasti|'''-Monasti']][[User talk:Monasti|(Talk)]] #As Roden stated (I revised my vote) VNT ~ Talk to me! 09:44, May 3, 2011 (UTC) #As with all said above. 'J97 Auditore' 22:59, July 2, 2011 (UTC) #Changing my vote. No, for the reasons Monasti cited. [[User:TheSlicer|'KHA']][[User talk:TheSlicer|'AAA']][[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'AN!]] 23:35, July 2, 2011 (UTC) #As per what Toa Roden said. -- 01:54, July 5, 2011 (UTC) #--[[User:Ids5621|'''Ids]] [[User Talk:Ids5621|'5621']] 15:53, July 21, 2011 (UTC) #We're a Wiki for writing and improving fan fiction storylines, not a chatroom. Starbucks orporated #Lizarddragon x25 18:13, July 21, 2011 (UTC) #Any thing we can do to keep this wiki from becoming a social networking site [[User:Biogecko|'Bio']] [[User talk:Biogecko|'Gecko']] #--[[User talk:Chicken Bond|'Welcome']] [[DR|'to']] [[BW|'the']] [[EU|'Fezpedia!']] 11:20, July 22, 2011 (UTC) #No! Mibbit is there if we want to chat! It's just as good, if not better, than chat! Plus, Mibbit is more Moderated than a normal chat. --MoccerT 12:04, July 22, 2011 (UTC) #[[User:RandoMaster07|'R']][[User talk:RandoMaster07|'M']][[Rando|'0']][[The Chroros Nui Civil War|'7']] #Liopleurodon 18:34, July 22, 2011 (UTC) #'Shadowmaster' 18:40, July 22, 2011 (UTC) #-Crazy-Lihkan38, the Old Timer and B'crat of CBW 02:38, July 23, 2011 (UTC) #I wouldn't like to see more changes into this direction.-- [[User:Abc8920|'6' cups]] [[User talk:Abc8920|'in' one year!''']] 19:27, July 23, 2011 (UTC) #As useless as cheat codes for Wii Fit.- [[User:Scorpion665| Nightmare ]] [[User talk:Scorpion665|'Fiction]] Comments May I revise my vote after Roden`s comment? VNT ~ Talk to me! 14:54, May 3, 2011 (UTC) Yes. [[User:TheSlicer|'Sli]][[User talk:TheSlicer|'cer']] [[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'Out']] 21:35, May 3, 2011 (UTC) I really don't see why we need this. This is a wiki, and since we're part of Wiki Metru, we should use their chat. Varkanax39 02:05, July 3, 2011 (UTC) :You are also a community here. Having a way to communicate with other editors here is hardly a bad thing. [[User:Ajraddatz|'a']][[User Talk:Ajraddatz|'jr']] 02:07, July 3, 2011 (UTC) ::Agreed, but we already have the IRC, talk pages, and blogs. Varkanax39 02:10, July 3, 2011 (UTC) :::I'd have said this, but Vakrie was first. As he said, we've already got an IRC. Having this is just going to cut us off from the rest of the WM community, the exact opposite of our goal. [[User:TheSlicer|'KHA']][[User talk:TheSlicer|'AAA']][[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'AN!']] 02:11, July 3, 2011 (UTC) ::::And another method of communication is a bad thing? Why? Chat is really handy for new users to come and ask questions too, which is good for user retention. Not hard to use like the IRC is. [[User:Ajraddatz|'a']][[User Talk:Ajraddatz|'jr']] 02:12, July 3, 2011 (UTC) :::::It's not a bad thing, merely superfluous, unnecessary, and unneeded, considering we already have an IRC. And talk pages. And blogs. The IRC fulfills the same spot as this would, thus, it is unnecessary. Varkanax39 02:16, July 3, 2011 (UTC) ::::::JUST GET OVER IT ALREADY![[User:Flex217|'Master']] [[User talk:Flex217|'of']] [[User blog:Flex217|'Paradox']] , , (UTC) :::::::Please don't be angry, I'm just trying to discuss this, not criticize anyone's point of view... Varkanax39 02:20, July 3, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::Just enable it already. I miss Bug and Makuta over at Brickipedia cause I'm banned.[[User:Flex217|'Master']] [[User talk:Flex217|'of']] [[User blog:Flex217|'Paradox']] , , (UTC) :::::::::...Curse edit conflicts. @Flex: Once again, please have a positive attitude when discussing things on Wikia. Don't just ignore all our points of view and request for something to be done when you don't even have a full majority yet and the discussion's still ongoing. (@Varkie: I see you quoted me again. Thankee-sai for the honororation.) :::::::::@AJR: You have a valid point regarding that of user retention, but it's not really hard to use at all, in my opinion. And if we put a big notice up for the IRC like Brickipedia did for the chat, then it would probably attract just as many new users as the chat does, so there wouldn't be much of a difference. :::::::::Also, the Wiki Metru community is supposed to be united, but in practice, that's less than true. Many editors only communicate with the WM staff through IRC and WM itself, and if the chat replaces the IRC, then that form of communication is essentially gone. Besides, chat and IRC serve the same purpose, so it's not like anything would be improved by the change. And IRC has more features anyway. [[User:TheSlicer|'KHA']][[User talk:TheSlicer|'AAA']][[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'AN!']] 02:22, July 3, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::::@Slice: Agreed. So what practical purpose would enabling this feature serve? Varkanax39 02:24, July 3, 2011 (UTC) :::::::::::@Varkanax: Anyone who is banned on Mibbit or IRC a chance to talk and anyone who doesn't go on those (like me) to chat also.[[User:Flex217|'Master']] [[User talk:Flex217|'of']] [[User blog:Flex217|'Paradox']] , , (UTC) ::::::::::::Have you considered that if people are banned (none of which I know of at the moment), then they're probably banned for a reason? And if you don't go on the official IRC, then that's your own fault. [[User:TheSlicer|'KHA']][[User talk:TheSlicer|'AAA']][[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'AN!']] 02:30, July 3, 2011 (UTC) :::::::::::::@Slice: Glad you noticed. @Flex: I'm sorry you're banned, but (no offense) I'm pretty sure this is meant to be something that is supposed to benefit the entire wiki, not just one user. Chat should only be enabled if a majority of users can agree that it provides something useful to the entire wiki, not just one user, and I've so far seen that this has no overall benefit to the entire community. Varkanax39 02:31, July 3, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Most users here use Mibbit, and I immagine that few would want to change. Also, the IRC is a great way to interact with the rest of the WM community, from my experience, seeing as most users here on CBW have little to no contact with the other Wikimetru sites and wikis. As Slice said, the Wikimetru community is supposed to be united, but in practice, that's less than true. Many editors only communicate with the WM staff through IRC and WM itself, and if the chat replaces the IRC, then that form of communication is essentially gone. J97 Auditore 03:03, July 3, 2011 (UTC) :::::::::::::::@Jareroden: But then again, you have point. Most people here don't interact with the rest of Wiki Metru, because we don't have to. Chat on this wiki would be something we could use, if we don't get on the rest of WM or use IRC. Maybe you people should try it out, like people have said previously. It's not a nuisence. If you people don't want to use the freaking thing, don't use it. Then the people who do will. I don't even see why we need a vote!! It's rediculous! [[User:1999bug| ' 1999bug ']][[User Talk:1999bug|''' Talk ]] 19:55, July 3, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::I have tried it out, for your information, and I don't hate it. What I hate is that you don't realize that it is 'taking away our communication--which is ''dangerously lacking, as has been previously pointed out--and offering nothing in return. In that sense, it is a nuisance, and what I'' find ridiculous is that people are failing to recognize this even after this has been brought up so many times. [[User:TheSlicer|'KHA']][[User talk:TheSlicer|'AAA']][[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'AN!]] 22:09, July 3, 2011 (UTC) :::::::::::::::::alright, I get that it's a nuisance. But I ask you, what's the bigger nuisance: Dealing with this second chat, or deleting all the spam that's posted in blogs and blog comments by those who don't use mibbit? Appealing to the admins and b'crats ftw!! -'''Dark Phyrrus Has Arrived 00:06, July 4, 2011 (UTC)EDIT:'Okay, so, reading the reasons that were put for against, I've come up with arguments for each. :::::::::::::::::1. Jman, that's your laziness talking. :::::::::::::::::2. I beg to differ. CBW is ''MUCH more than just a wiki. this has become a place to meet new friends. Mibbit is a place to strengthen those friendships, but not everybody uses it. :::::::::::::::::3. I actually agree with you there, Roden. But I ask you, what makes you think that we will all use it now, if we all haven't already? :::::::::::::::::4-6. Same as the above. :::::::::::::::::Onto the comments. "...we already have the IRC, talk pages, and blogs." We do, but socializing like we would do in a chatroom, but in a blog would be considered spam, and we'd get in trouble for it. And I for one don't want my edit count to go up by a couple thousand because of messaging people on their talk pages or by commenting on blogs. Also, for all you know, you may be sending a message to somebody who is not there, and will not be there for some time. And again, not everybody uses the IRC. :::::::::::::::::"...Having this is just going to cut us off from the rest of the WM community, the exact opposite of our goal." Okay, well we might as well already be cut off. How many of us CBW users go on mibbit regularly? Not even close to half. And the rest of the WM community presumably have Wikia accounts, so they'd be able to come to this new chatroom. It'd be hosted by CBW, but for all of WM. :::::::::::::::::"It's not a bad thing, merely superfluous, unnecessary, and unneeded, considering we already have an IRC. And talk pages. And blogs. The IRC fulfills the same spot as this would, thus, it is unnecessary." I've noticed that one reason that keeps coming up for not wanting this second chat room is that it's unnecessary. Well, the first chat room is, as well as a lot of other things. Okay, I mean no disrespect or offense, but you guys ''NEED'' to get past the whole "It's illogical and unnecessary" thing. So what if it is? A lot of things are. Seriously, get over it. :::::::::::::::::"Most users here use Mibbit..." LIES! "'''taking away our communication--which is dangerously lacking, as has been previously pointed out--and offering nothing in return." Okay, so, I once again must say that it's not going to change if we don't make this new chat. Only a few people here use mibbit regularly, so, again, we might as well already be isolated, like you said. BUT, with this new chat, everybody in WM will be able to come as long as they have a wikia account, correct? If that's true, then worst-case-scenario, this new chat will HELP our communications. If not, well, our communications won't be getting any better anyways, so why not? :::::::::::::::::"...it is a nuisance, and what I'' find ridiculous is that people are failing to recognize this..." Well, ''I find it ridiculous that you have apparently failed to realize that those in power should not only meet the users needs, but also their wants, or at least some of them. You see the second chat as illogical because there's already one in existence, but I see the current one as illogical because so few people from here use it. This chat will be presumably used by everyone, making it much more useful than the first. And sure, it may be a nuisance, but I ask, what's a bigger nuisance: Dealing with a second chat, or dealing with all the spam blogs and spam comments that are made by users who don't use mibbit? -'Dark Phyrrus Has Arrived' 00:42, July 4, 2011 (UTC) Phyrrus, we use Mibbit because it's used to interact with WMF users. Were not really aiming to talk to the whole world, because the whole world of wiki's, I doubt would like Bionicle. That's why I choose not to go to a new chat. I also agree with what Roden said, 100%. And plus, you've never used Wikia's chat, so I'm counting your arguement as invalid. Sorry, but Wikia's chat sucks to me. (I'm allowed to say that right? —[[User Talk:Jman98|''Jamn]] [[User:Jman98/BIONICLE FTW!!|liciousness]] 01:02, July 4, 2011 (UTC) Okay, you can go ahead and count is as invalid. Not sure why, because this doesn't require knowledge of what a wikia chat is like. Anyways, since when was I aiming to talk to the whole world? I just said that those with wikia accounts could go to our chat. doesn't mean every single wiki is gonna show up. So, I shall now go ahead and copy you, by saying "I'm counting your arguement as invalid." -'Dark Phyrrus Has Arrived' 01:11, July 4, 2011 (UTC) I'll address the points of mine that you brought up, Phyrrus. For one, part of the reason that a lot of people aren't using Mibbit is because they ''don't know about it. If we promoted our chat in the same way Brickipedia and others do, I'm sure it would attract the same amount of attention. Regarding the spam that's posted in blog comments by those that don't use Mibbit: I personally don't believe that that has much to do with the lack of ability to use Mibbit. The people that spam, spam. The people that use Mibbit, use Mibbit. I don't necessarily see a correlation, and though I don't deny that there may be one, I don't see a reason to assume that. Also, the IRC serves as a neutral meeting ground for all users, regardless of their site. While it is true that most WM users should already have accounts, the fact is that we shouldn't force everyone to come to CBW to use our chat. Besides, CBW is part of WM, and we are meant to be working as a community. In addition, before you say that the IRC will always be there for the people who want it, I'd like to add that however little you like the point that the chat is unnecessary considering that we already have an IRC with all the same features, it does not make it invalid. We do not need two chats that are just as easily accessible. And no offense, but I find that last bit of your argument--"Well, I'' find it ridiculous that you have apparently failed to realize that those in power should ''not only meet the users needs, but also their wants, or at least some of them"--ridiculous. Are you saying that I shouldn't harbor my own opinion and explain why I have it? Yes, the admins will bow to the majority decision once the vote is over, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't argue against this. [[User:TheSlicer|'KHA']][[User talk:TheSlicer|'AAA']][[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'AN!']] 03:13, July 4, 2011 (UTC) You know, believe it or not, some people are not allowed on chat websites by their parents.. Besides, I've tried Wikia Chat, and it's much better. Baterra1202 @Slice Whether you see this or not: We haven't exactly been promoting it, but it isn't like nobody has heard of it before. I'm sure that you can go up to a lot of the users and ask if they know about mibbit, and they'll say yes. And you should harbor your own opinion, and if you happen to be against this, then by all means, argue. However, saying it's "unnecessary" isn't too great of a reason, IMO. Like I said, a lot of things are unnecessary, but wanted. This new chat being one of them. Sure, it isn't needed, but it is wanted. As of now, it's wanted by the majority of users. It's like getting a duplicate of a BIONICLE or LEGO set that you already have. Why do you get another one when you already have that set? More possibilities. You're able to do more with those extra pieces. So, why would you make another chat when we already have one that's almost identical? More possibilities. More people can access it. Again, no offense intended, but you shouldn't be against this because it isn't needed. I know, there's other reasons too, but that shouldn't be one of them, IMO. -'Dark Phyrrus Has Arrived' 14:59, July 4, 2011 (UTC) @Phyrrus: The thing your not getting is the fact that Mibbit's chat is for Wikimetru, meaning all of Wikimetru. Wikia's chat is strictly to this wiki. Why should we force the other WMF sites (Herofactopedia, Custom Hero Factory Wiki, Bioniclepedia/The Bionicle Wiki) to come here to chat? Why not just have the chat on the main site. But, this is just how I look at it, you may see it diferantly. —[[User Talk:Jman98|''Jamn]] [[User:Jman98/BIONICLE FTW!!|liciousness]] 15:03, July 4, 2011 (UTC) We aren't ''forcing them to do anything. Mibbit will always be open, there will just be a second chat for those who can't use mibbit. -'Dark Phyrrus Has Arrived' 15:09, July 4, 2011 (UTC) @Phyrrus: But why should we have a second one? Sure, some aren't allowed on chat sites, but that's not our fault. And still, if someone wants to talk to WMF people, then they'd still have to use Mibbit, since Wikia's chat isn't available to all WMF users. Which if WMF wants to talk to us, then we are forcing them to use our chat. Understand what I mean? Either way, if people from WMF and people from CBW want to interact, they'd have to use this new chat. But, I guess there's no point in continuing this discussion if Mibbit's still an option. But if Mibbit's still an option either way, why is this even being discussed? —[[User Talk:Jman98|''Jamn]] [[User:Jman98/BIONICLE FTW!!|liciousness]] 15:20, July 4, 2011 (UTC) I'm not against this or for this. I think that were would be a few pros and cons: Pros: 1. We cn discuss about each others MoC's. 2. It's faster than the message system. 3. If admins had the chat system, then they can quickly help new members to learn to work on this wikia. 4. For users that block Mibbit, they can use this system. Cons: 1. Arguements. It may cause them if one person doesn't agree with something. 2. If one person is talking to 5 other people, it ''might take a while for pages and blogs to load. 3. Mibbit does allow 10 different people to talk at the same time. User:Kylma300 @Kylma: This chat lets a lot of people on at once. "If one person is talking to 5 other people, it might take a while for pages and blogs to load." That depends on your internet connection. "Arguements. It may cause them if one person doesn't agree with something." Thats why we use the @ for non-arguements.[[User:Flex217|'Master']] [[User talk:Flex217|'of']] [[User blog:Flex217|'Paradox']] , , (UTC) @Flex217: I know what you mean but I'm just saying that I wouldn't go for it or against it. User:Kylma300 We're a Wiki, people, a Wiki built for writing and improving fan fiction stories, not a social network. Besides, the Wikia chat would make even less people go on the Mibbit than the people that already go on it, and besides, the people that aren't allowed on the IRC, it's not my problem, it's their problem and not ours, so we're not supposed to solve it, because it's not our problem, and I guess that if Baterra and Speewaa talk to their parents and say it's a chat site from CBW they'd probably be allowed. Don't shove problems up ours just because it's got something to do with something that belongs to us, alright? And, then again, we are a Wiki built for writing and improving fan fiction stories, not a social networking site built for socializing with others, we can socialize in our IRC, which I'd kindly link you to: IRC. Have a good day, and stop ruining my day by shoving a problem up ours just because it's got something to do with something that belongs to us. Starbucks orporated @Baterra: And how would you know it's better if you've never used Mibbit since your not allowed? And as Fairon said, it's not our problem if your not allowed. Should we be reduced to have to use Wikia's jusr because YOU can't use the IRC. And Wikia's chat is pretty much a IRC btw, so you probably wouldn't even be allowed on that. So all of your excuses make no sense. Sorry to seem blunt, but this is just how I look at it. Okay, I'm just gonna say this: If you haven't been on Mibbit (Our IRC), then don't vote, okay? Because the people that haven't been on our IRC haven't actually seen it yet and can't say that the Chat is better than the IRC. I know the Chat might be a good thing, but seriously, if you haven't been on Mibbit yet, don't vote or remove your vote, okay? Just sayin'. 'Starbucks orporated We have a majority now, 18 "no" votes against 12 "yes" votes. Topic closed... 'Varkanax ' 20:27, July 22, 2011 (UTC) :The discussion is still in progress. This shouldn't be closed yet. [[User:TheSlicer|'KHA]][[User talk:TheSlicer|'AAA']][[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'AN!']] 21:58, July 22, 2011 (UTC) ::Yes, but we've reached a majority. 18 passes the required majority to close a vote. Varkanax ' 23:33, July 22, 2011 (UTC) :::It was a majority for the other side earlier. I decided to wait until the discussion was over before implementing the chat function--why don't we do the same? [[User:TheSlicer|'KHA]][[User talk:TheSlicer|'AAA']][[w:c:custombionicle:User:TheSlicer/Nightwatcher's Review Club|'AN!']] 23:59, July 22, 2011 (UTC) If you guys are oh-so worried about turning the place into a social networking site, throw in the chat and eliminate blogs. No more socializing comments. -'Dark Phyrrus Has Arrived' 01:20, July 23, 2011 (UTC) :No,they can't bring the chat in because it has already been voted against by everyone. Plus, everyone would just use the chat and not be on the actual wiki,just the chat... --MoccerT 01:37, July 23, 2011 (UTC) ::@Phyrrus: I'm really sorry how some of the admins have been dramatically opposed to adding this (including me), but the fact is, a lot of older users on here really dislike the social networking aspect of the wiki (such as blogs, the Chat, the achievements and badges, etc,...). A lot of us really don't want to add more to this, considering how little is being done on the mainspace already. I can go over my entire argument again, but the fact is, I really have nothing more to say then what I've already stated. And it is impossible (As far as I know) to remove the blog feature. And I really understand where you're coming from with this, I understand that you prefer viewing MOCs to reading stories (Which is okay, it's the differences of editors that makes this wiki a better place). But with our community swinging way too far toward the social networking part of the site, I'm trying to return the main focus to the mainspace, which is the purpose of a wiki. @Slice: Okay. @TF: I understand that you're strongly opposed to the Chat (like me), but could you please not try to escalate the situation further? Things are already tense enough... Varkanax ' 01:57, July 23, 2011 (UTC) I'd just like to point out one more thing. Most of the people voting against the chat are most of the people who actually edit here. And they don't ''need to use the chat. So if you're worried about CBW losing it's activity to the chat, then don't. -'''Dark Phyrrus Has Arrived 02:22, July 23, 2011 (UTC) PLEASE get past thinking of it as useless. It may be useless for you, but not for other people. If you think it's useless, don't use it. Leave it for those of us that want it. -'Dark Phyrrus Has Arrived' 20:17, July 23, 2011 (UTC) To Pandaboy2: We will not put Mibbit and WIki chat toghether because Wiki Metru Forums will only have Mibbit, while we have both! --Kylma300 20:54, July 23, 2011 (UTC) I have protected this forum, as this is just causing too much arguements and strife between the users here. Such as: http://mibpaste.com/emLt5e Be aware that this contains language. J97Auditore 21:04, July 23, 2011 (UTC)